iamshani 0 Posted May 25, 2003 Hi Meeri.. can u quote tht hadith from Siha Sitta..?..then i wud justify ur confusion with ur reference..! however..have u read Quran by heart ?? if yes..then u must know this verse. " Salamun Ala Alay Yaseen " ( Sura Zaffat') can u translate it in urdu or english for me.. ? till then Allah hafiz C ya.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mansoor 0 Posted May 25, 2003 Asslamo alikum ! every one ! First off all i wuld like to extend my thanks to every one who participated here ..... i Posted that Topic to high light the ever living Memory of Hazrat imam Hussain razeuula anhoo . folks ! that was Not meant To start some "munazra" daikho!!!!! its beennn almost 1300 yrs our elders been doin that is'nt that enough ! u ppl know when Changush Khan and his tataris were on the DOOrs of BEghdad ......... the Muslims were fighting wid each other on a similar type of " faroogee " difference :( is'nt all that sad :( i know the imortance of "aqeeda" NO doubt in that ... BUt is tthat fight gave Us some thin all in dat 1300 yrs of our " milllleee" life ??? is nay thin it gave us except making the difference more and more deeper and killings ... devestations etc :( u know How we should asess the "outcome" of some matters ?? by the result it yealds ................. And all of u put ur one hands over ur heart and tell me did it yielded some thin goodd everrrrr ???? No , never did it ...... So .. Now let me come to solution ! i have been reading all those Post rom start ... but i puposely did not particiapated as i knew it wuld add to DUST !!!! what i read in my Public relation books and my experience tooo .. i think we should always GO for common things ... it wuld in a process help us to come to some acceptable solution ... MUKHALFAT brayee mUHALFAT wont yield any thin :( Achaa as i said in my opening Posts why dont we GO for common" things why dont we think for which purpose IMAMAM ul shauhdaa gave his life ??? yazeedd is a symbol of :ZULUM" dictator ship and Shitaniat ... Imam gave his life life but did not bowed ti him are we doing such sacrifice or we are strengthning the "wrongones" ? kia US yazeed nahi hai .... ?? what are we doing agianst it kia hamaray "masrayy" main bhut saray yazeedd choopay nahi bathay ?? kia ham har rozz akbarat main aisay yazeedoon kay baray nahi partthay ?? killing inncocent ppl are we doing "jihad" like imam's ..against those ? Do we find the courage in ourself to lay our life for such "crshed ppl" ?? regards Mansoor Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meeri 0 Posted May 25, 2003 Shani> first of all, that verse is "Salaamun Ala Ilyaseen" and it is in Sura Saaffaat verse number 130 which means "Salaamtee ho Ilyas (AS) par" Ilyas paighambar thay.... waisay aap ka point kya hay ??? waiting for the reply....! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meeri 0 Posted May 25, 2003 Mansoor> Lol...! nice to see ur deep voice :P Anyway, u r right to some extent but instead of giving example of Yazeed as Zalim, better consider Pharoah for it.. coz we r not sure whether yazeed Zalim or innocent. agar to woh Zalim hua to koi masla naheen wagarna Allah k rasool SAW k kahay huay jannati ko Zalim kehnay say kaheen humaray saath masla he na ho jaay :;): Anywayz, main yazeed kee hargiz side naheen laita. main to siraf yeh keh raha tha k Hadith kee roo say yeh baat ghalat hay k woh jahannami hay. jin Ulma say main nay poocha hay un main say aik k saath baat huee thee jo Madinah University say certified hain aur woh siwaay Quran aur Hadith k koi baat naheen maantay aur Quran k bhee Hafiz hain aur Ahadith k bhee aur un kee sab baatain theek hee hotee hain to phir yeh baat kaisay woh ghalat keh dain jo k itnee baree baat hay. bahar haal main un say pin point reference poochoon ga. Hadith asal main yoon hay k Hazoor SAW nay farmaya k "jo lashkar qustuntunya par fatah paay ga woh (guaranteed k woh) jannati hay" aur Yazeed us lashkar ka commandar bana kar bhaija gya tha... agay Wallah-u-A'lam! Allah Hafiz! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fati 0 Posted May 25, 2003 mansoor ap kayun meeri ka dil dukha rahay hain. meeri manta hay na ke yazeed janati hay. aur ap na usay zalim keh diya. ap shayad zalim ka nam mazlomon main ho ga aur mazlomon ka zalimon main.i wil ladd more here. but not now. aur aik baat main bataon. hadeeth humari rehnomaiy ke liya. hadeeth banai bhi gayi hay rasool (saw) ka zamanay ke baad. is liya sure kar lain ka ya hadeeth ya kuch aur. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meeri 0 Posted May 25, 2003 fati> maira issay kya lagay k yazeed jannati hay ya jahannami :) dear, main to siraf yeh keh raha hoon k kaheen ghalat comments dainay say masla na ho jaay ya kaheen hum gunahgar na ban jaain... Otherwise, i dont care who he was... waisay jin say yeh hadith sunee thee, un ko bohot see jhootee hadeethain bhee yaad hain aur woh yeh bhee bata saktay hain k us kee sanad kis taraf baandhee gaee hay.... to phir woh itnee sangeen baat ko kyoon jhootee hadith say quote karain gay. his name is Hafiz Abdurrehman and is in Pakistan. pooray country main un k daroos hotay hain. agar aap kee mulaqat ho sakay to un say zaroor poochain is baray main :) Anywayz, i cared for u coz u all r my friends and i dont want u all to get involved in any risk. :;): ok! g2g Allah Hafiz! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamshani 0 Posted May 26, 2003 Salamz.. sorry to God as i wrote sura fatir instead of sura saffat..i have editted it.. wel..itz the difference..u ppl believe tht itz abt Harat Ilyas...r u trying to say tht in arabic " (ilyasin=ilyas ) ?..i have read in the tafseer-e-quran and many other books like alshafi, kafi, etc..tht itz " Al-e-Yaseen" and the zair zabar was mispalced in the era of banu ummayya due to their hatred for Al-e-yaseen which meanz Ahlaybait a.s. also..u qouted tht one who wud get victory in Qustuntunia wud be in jannat...ok if i mgonna accept it..then u must accept tht u believe in the zahiri victory of yazeed ..while the actual victory was of Imam Hussain a.s. ALSO....don't u believe tht Husnain a.s. r the Sardar-e-Jawanan-e-Jannat...then how wud they lead their own martydomer yazeed to jannat in qayamat... n also...u preesented hadith here na..but u know tht yazeed was rashi, jabir, Sharbi, etc..and from QURAn itz evident tht man having such characters can never be in the Jannat.. now ur turn.. however..i never wished to fight as we all must be on ittihad bainul muslemeen.. tc Allah hafiz C ya.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cute_ooky 0 Posted May 26, 2003 ahem ahem..... yeah sure. Whatever...... u guys are ...... yani keh ab tuk joh mai believe kerti arahee thee.. ya'll just proved it wrong... I mean after reading all ur replies.. now I m not sure of what I believe or........ whats right n whats wrong! So I m jus watching..... dekho na Mansoor kia start ker dia tumne? Mujeh bhi confuse ker dia hai..... Now have fun..... Me just watchin...... hehe.. ooky! :p Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meeri 0 Posted May 26, 2003 iamshani> I am really amazed to see ur post. i dont believe that Quran is ever changed. "Inna nahnu nazzalnazzikra wa inna lahu lahafizoon..." meaning= "Hum hee is zikar ko nazil karnay walay hain aur hum he is k nagehbaan hain" now what does that mean... anyway, as far as i'm concerned... peechay saara nabyon ka hee zikar ho raha hay e.g. Salaamun ala noohin fil aalamin (to Prophet Noah)... salaamun ala Ibrahim (to Prophet Abraham) etc. aur sab say baree baat yeh k issay pichlee aayat main Hazrat Ilyas AS kaa hee zikar ho raha hay. like "Wa inna Ilyasa Laminal Mursaleen" meaning="Aur Ilyas (bhee) bhaijay huay rasoolon main say thay." is lyay aap is ko apnee taraf say naheen mend karsaktay. is tarah to sura kahaf main bhee hay (in the beginning of 16 para) k jab Moses Khizar k saath aik city main gaay thay to logon nay un kee khidmat na kee aur un kee madad na kee... to us area k logon nay Hazrat Umer (RA) say bhee kaha tha k us "baa(arabic alphabet)" k dots ko "taa(arabic alphabet)" k dots main badal dain jis k meaning banain gay k unhon nay un kee khidmat kee aur un ko (cheezain) ata keen... phir bhee unhon nay change naheen kya... yeh Quran hay mazaq naheen k log is ko apnee marzee say hatredness kee waja say change karlain...... Abt Hazrat Hussain RA as i already mentioned b4 that it is better to use Raziallah-u-ta'ala unhu instead of Alaayhissalaam because of two reasons..... 1. AS is used mostly or absolutely for Prophets. 2. RA means Allah un say Raazi while AS means Salaamtee ho un par. now tell me, which one would u like to prefer??? so abt Hazrat Hussain RA, i never say anything against him.... He was a gr8 gr8 Muslim as well as the grandson of Prophet Muhammad SAW and will b sardar-e-jannatees. no doubt he would b. and abt yazeed.... LOL! my friend, thats what i'm trying to say that the history we all believed in is just wrong..... actually, yazeed nay kaha to tha k woh us par bait karain magar Hazrat Hussain RA ko koofya say baishumar (almost 18,000) letters milay thay aur un main yehee kaha tha k aap humaray leader ban jaain aur hum aap par qurban.... etc. and when he reached karbala.... the koofyans were against him. and they killed him on that land. And according to the History, Hazrat Hussain ko jab foj nay roka tha to unhon nay jo teen shartain kahee theen un main say aik yeh bhee thee k mujhay waapis janay dya jaay taakay main us k haath par bait karloon. Now can u give me any proof that he was killed on 10th Muharram? jab k woh 8 Zilhijja ko to Mecca say niklay thay. yeh sab Jews kee conspiracy thee k Muslims k lyay khushyon ka din gham main badal dya. kyoon k woh Jews k lyay bohot he ufsos nak din tha k jis ko Muslims ko victory mil gaee thee. aur dosree baat yeh hay k Islam main sog is tarah manana jaisay Shia aur kuch Sunni Hazrat manatay hain, jaiz naheen. I've already mentioned it b4 with some references. aur sab say ahem baat yeh k aap ko kis nay kaha k yazeed Sharabi, badkar, Zaalim etc tha? any proof? agar hay to phir bhee jis k baray main Hazoor SAW nay predict kardya k woh jannati ho ga to hum kon hotay hain Hazoor SAW kee baat ka inkaar karnay walay. yeh to aisay he hay jaisay namaz k doran koi bulaay to us waqt namaz torna jaaiz naheen laikin Allah ya us k Rasool SAW bulaain to foran baat sunnee chahyay..... umeed hay k mairee kuch baatain clear ho gaee hon gee. Aur aap kee baat bilkul durust hay k ittahad bainul muslimeen. laikin aik baat yeh bhee to hay k ittihad alal Haq! isnt it? :) I also dont wish to fight and i am absolutely not fighting. This is just a friendly discussion. no1 is trying to degrade any1. just trying to find out the truth. switching towards u now... :;): ooky> :D my dear sis... baicharee mairee behen confuse ho gaee? awww! dont worry, hope every1 will seek truth soon. BTW, aap ka kya believe ya belief tha? kya humain bhee batana pasand farmaain gee? LOL! and u dare say anything to mansoor...! woh to baichara koi aur baat kehna chahta tha aur baat kahan say kahan chal niklee... aur yeh achee baat hay jissay banda kabhee bore naheen hota.... LOL! is k baad main koi aur baat nikaloon ga jis par mujhay umeed hay k phir say jootay parain gay :P Bye! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meeri 0 Posted May 26, 2003 waisay ooky, aap apnay khyaalat kaa bhee to izhar karain aap ko kya lagta hay??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fati 0 Posted May 27, 2003 main itnay parhnay ke mood main nahi. such a long post meeri. leeme me have a break. just wanna say one thing. quran main zair zabal ki mistakes hain. just check out a quranic verse from one and compare it with other. u will find difference. it can b also typing errors or watever. well it is not ilyasin. he is right. its al-yaseen. AS is used for prpohet. hazrat muhammad wa a prophet too. but because of his being the gr8est prophet SAW is used for him. and AS is used for ahlebait. for sure. dead sure. becoz they r gr8 too. i cant read ur whole post. will reply to it later. ooky share ur views. mansoor to waqai koi aur bat kehna chahta tha. magar meeri na kahan pohancha diaaaaa. :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fati 0 Posted May 27, 2003 goona confirm some more things. till then bye Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamshani 0 Posted May 27, 2003 Salamz to all.. first of all...i wud like to appreciate meeri tht hez agreed tht itz a friendly discussion indeed..:) and infact we r unitedly justifying the tamheeds...ok well.. meeri lissen ..and u must read all the things in this section especially quite independently and liberately... wel..the ayat u r talking abt...( abt hifazat of Quran) ..itz 100% rite tht Allah is responsible of the safety of Quran...but u must be sure tht God Himself has determined us tht He has saved all these things in Loh-e-Mehfooz... and infact tht is the thing which can never be chanmged and itz safety is actually the responsibilty of Allah..secondly..if u r determined tht itz illyasin ( while itz Al-yaseen) then u plz justify is illyasIN meanz illyas ? i mean wat abt " IN " if u take it Illyasin then itz the plural form but u r saying tht itz abt single hazrat Illyas a.s. ?? Also...RA ka matlab hay...Allah un say Razi ho..while we all r 100% sure tht Allah is razi with them...and if u accept tht verse ( Salam ho ahlebait par) then in itz light A.S. is more preferable for Ahlaybait a.s. ...Also..A.S. meanz salamti ho..and Salamti us pay hoti hay jo Salamat ho...aur infact Shaheed salamat hota hay...got it ?? ok ok ok..tell me one thing..can u ever say Abu Jahel ..a jannati ??? no na....! why ?? bcuzzz...he was the brutal enemy of Islam and Hazrat Mohammad P.b.u.h. meanz we wud never agree tht one who is the brutal enemy of Mohammad SAW wud never and in no way can be the holder of jannat...now u must agree tht itz the Hadith " Hussain mujh say hay aur Main Hussain say" Also.. " Is ka Dushman mera Dushman, is ka Dost..mera dost..jis nay isay nuqsaan pohanchaya..us nay mujhay nuqsan pohanchaya..is ka gosht mera gosht hay.........." now mean..yazeed was the brutal enemy of Imam Hussain a.s. meanz of Mohammad SAW too..he martyrdomed Imam Hussain a.s. meanz he shud be recginzed as the martyrdomer of Nabi SAW too...and onw who is such a brutal enemy of Mohammad SAW can ever be jannati ?????????? also also also.... u can't be quite sure abt Hadiths but u must be sure abt Quranic verses na...then acc. to Quranic verse..one who kills an innocent can never be in jannat until the waris of the one who is killed forgive him...but Saddat has never forgave yazeed....! also my friend..is crying or weeping bidat ???..u must know tht itz in Quran tht hazrat Yaqoob a.s. cried so much on the loss of Hazrat Yousuf a.s. tht he lost his eye sight...! then how crying is bidat ??? also...God has created pairz..if itz legal to celebrate happiness then itz also legal to mourn..haan i wud also submit one thing here tht some hypocrites not in sunniz but also in shiaz too have made azadari .. a fashion but itz not applicabel on the true SHIAZ or the true Sunniz..c shia sunni r jus the names ...the real thing is the luv from heart..! so think abt it..! now ...itz ur turn..:) and keep in mind... " to seek truth sumtimes we have to pass a long desert..but never be tired..and never do fight..:) ! C ya... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamshani 0 Posted May 31, 2003 i m really confused..tht why meeri and other gyz stopped responding here????plz consider my commentz.. C ya.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meeri 0 Posted May 31, 2003 Salaam to every1! Hope that u all r well :P First of all, i'm sorry to shani and fati........ for the late reply. i was just trying to confirm something. now that i'm clear, so i can answer to ur post. First, tell me what do u think about "Tafseer Ibn-e-Katheer". About my opinion, he was the gr8est scholars of Islam in the past centuries around 13-14 hundred years ago in the time of True Islam. His tafseer is considered to b the Imam of all Tafaseer.hope u also agree with that coz there is no other option. Now abt Ilyaseen, i asked the elder son of *Doctor Fazal Ilahi* (*famous muslim scholar of South Asia and Middle East etc.) He is a well-known scholar much like his father too. He said that Ilyaseen is the name of Ilyas. and it is not the plural of Ilyas. he said that there r abt 30-35 different methods of "Pluraling" and this includes in none. Now let me take u to Tafseer Ibn-e-Katheer. in it, its written that Ilyaseen is another "Lughat" of Ilyas. this style is used in arabic language poetry etc. now let me ask u one thing, why is it in Quran used Toor-e-Saenaa and Toor-e-Seeneen. well, both of them means the same. Allah also used the same style in Sauffaat. Now let me give u an example of the same kind. i.e. Meekaa'eel => Meekaal or Meekaa'een, Ibraheem => Ibrahaam or Ibraheen etc. these examples r written in Tafseer Ibn-e-Katheer which r used in arabic. Humain to English yaa Urdu tak naheen aatee to hum arbee k baaray main kaisay keh saktay hain k yeh plural hay. plural k baray main itnee tafseel ho chukee hay k ulma aur scholars ko taqreeban 11-12 soa saal ho chukay hain but still it is incomplete. agar hota to Quran k is hissay k baray main zaroor wazahat ho jaatee. Quran main raddo badal k baray main jo ap nay kaha hay, us k baray main maaloom hua k woh bhee durust naheen. "inna nahnu nazzalnazzikra wa inna lahu lahaafizoon" (meaning k baishak hum he hain is zikar ko naazil karnay walay aur hum he is k muhafiz hain) yahaan main aik aur baat clear kardoon k yeh lafz "Zikar" Quran aur hadith donon k lyay use kya gya hay. kyoon k aap ko bhee yeh maaloom ho ga k Nabee-e-Akram SAW jo baat kehtay thay woh Allah kee taraf say he kaha kartay thay aur woh Allah hee kaa kalaam hota tha. jaisa k aik mash'hoor qol hay "Allah aur Nabee kee zaar aik naheen par baat aik hay" matlab yeh k Hazoor SAW kee baat (yanee Hadith) Allah hee kee baat hay. is lyay agar Quran ghalat naheen ho sakta to Hadith bhee ghalat naheen ho saktee. haan! kuch jhootee ahadith logon nay ghareen laikin Allah nay apnay bandon k zareeay humaray lyay Siha Sitta kee collection saamnay rakhdee jo A'imma nay baree mushkil say chaant chaant kar mustanad riwaayaat k saath un main likheen. Imam Bukhari Saheeh Bukhari main jo bhee hadith likhnay lagtay to us say pehlay istikhara zaroor karlaytay thay. Main apnee baat say kafee hat gya hoon :) kehna yeh chah raha tha k jo hifazat ka zimma Allah nay lyay hay woh isee Quran hee k baray main hay. Loh-e-Mehfooz main to likh dya gya. us ko to change karnay kaa sawaal he naheen paida hota kyoon k wahan to Shaitan jaa he naheen sakta. aur dosree baat yeh k Torah aur Bible aur Zaboor bhee to Loh-e-Mehfooz main likhdyay gaay thay laikin Allah nay Qur'an main kaha hay k woh kitabain change kardee gaeen. aur teesree baat k is aayat main jo kaha gya hay k hum he us kee hifazat karain gay ussay pehlay yeh bhee kaha gya k "Baishak hum nay usay naazil kya". ab naazil karnay k baad jo hifazat ka kaha jaa raha hay woh yehee hay k dunya main us kee hifazat kee jaay gee. The world's biggest book publishing center is in Madinah which prints Qur'an-e-Kareem. jo Qur'an wahan say chaptay hain un main bhee to yehee likha hay k Ilyaseen not Al-Yaseen. halaan k un ko to Aal-e-Yaseen say koi bughz naheen. woh to bharpoor izzat kartay hain. aur woh intahaee checking k baad mukhtalif mulkon k Huffaz say jin main African, Arabic, South Asian waghaira printing k baad check kartay hain. aur in kee taadaad 40 ya 41 hay. printing say pehlay jab printing k lyay Qur'an ready hota hay to usay bhee top k ulma check kartay hain aur koi ghaltee ho to usay saheeh karwatay hain aur aik aik page ko kaee kaee log check kartay hain. ab aap bataain k kya is k baad bhee koi ghaltee ho saktee hay? khud Europeans kee research hay k hum nay itnay Qur'an check kyay laikin un main say aik "wao" tak kee bhee ghaltee na milee. Germany main "Myoonkh" University nay aik special department banaaee jo Qur'an kee ghaltyaan check karrahee hay laikin un kee report hay k abhee tak humaree research complete to na huee laikin 1940 say jo puranay puranay Qur'an bhee jo daikhay hain un main ab tak koi ghaltee na mil sakee. yeh aaj kal k Musalman hain jo keh rahay hain k Qur'an main baishumaar ghaltyaan hain. Kuch Shia hazrat ka bhee yeh kehnay hay k Quran k do hissay ghaaib hain. aik hissa to sahabee kee baqree khaa gaee aur dosraa hissa un k aik Imam lay gay jo qiyamat k qareeb lay kar haazir hon gay. ab aap khud sochyay k yeh Quran k saath mazaq hay ya naheen? is tarah to ab tak jitnay bhee haafiz hain woh haafiz na huay. unhon nay to siraf teen main say aik hissa hee yaad kya. ajeeb baat naheen?? khair...... fati> mujhay aap k us waaqya k baray main bhee ilm huak woh saheeh hay ya naheen jis main hazoor SAW k ghar aurton nay bain kya tha. Asal waaqya yeh tha k jab Hazoor Ghazwa-e-Uhud say waapis aay thay to un ko kuch gharon say ronay kee aawazain aeen. ab yeh zehen main rahay k siraf ronay kee awazain aeen theen. maarnay peetnay kee naheen. thats why we cannot say it "Bain" . jab unhon nay poocha k yeh kyoon ro rahee hain (yeh naheen kaha k yeh kyoon bain karrahee hain) to jawab mila k in k ghar walay shaheed ho gaay thay. itnay afsos naak mahol main Hazoor SAW nay keh dya k "haay! aaj Hamza kee taraf say ronay wala koi naheen" to sahaba nay apnee baigmaat ko foran hazoor SAW k ghar bhaija k wahaan jaa kar rooain (aur shaid bain kaa bhee kaha tha) to jab woh Hazoor k ghar par pohoncheen to Hazoor nay bilkul mana kardya k Islam main bain karna bilkul jaaiz naheen aur yeh bhee keh dya k is tarah rona bhee jaiz naheen. to woh sab waapis chalee gaeen. ab hazoor SAW nay us waqt un ko kyoon naheen mana kya? is kee bhee do possibilities ho saktee hain. 1) moqa daikh kar kaha jata hay. ho sakta hay k hazoor SAW nay woh moqa munasib na samjha ho. 2) ho sakta hay k tab tak ihkam-e-ilahi naa naazil huay hon. theek hay k gham karnay kee ijazat hay magar limits main. oonchee oonchee awaaz say rona, moon pay thappar marna, kapray phaarna, baal nochna yeh sab haram hay aur is k baray main main nay pehlay bhee with reference hadithain bataeen theen. aur khushee kee bhee limits hain. Fatah Mecca k moqa par Hazoor SAW kaa sar-e-mubarak aajzee aur inkisaree say jhuka hua tha. 10 Muharram kee khushee k Hazrat Moosa AS aazad huay thay aur Hazrat Nuh AS kee kishtee toofan say nikal kar pahar par ruk gaee thee aur Hazrat Aadam AS kee dua qabool huee the aur phir un ko zamin kaa khalifa bana kar bhaija gya tha aur bhee kafee batain hueen theen, to un kee khushee main roza rakha tha. is tarah agar aap nay gham mana hay to ghar main roain konay main baith jaain aur ufsos karain. aur khushee bhee mananee ho to roza rakhain, khush hon magar sab kuch Shara'ee limits main hon.... waisay abhee aur bhee batain hain par abhee k lyay itna hee kafee hay...... AUR aik aur baat k yazeed kee woh walee hadith main nay puchwaee thee to woh abhee pata karain gay laikin Bukhari main yaa Muslim kee hadith hay. i shall soon tell u abt this. but its definitely in Bukhari or Muslim.... Enough? ab ijazat? :D ok! Allah Hafiz! PS: lagta hay k shani mairee baree naheen aanay day ga :P Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamshani 0 Posted June 1, 2003 Salamz.. :) i appreciate u Meeri tht atleast u r ready to negotiate for the truth.... ur post is really very lengthy but i have carefully read all.. however ..i m not intending to write such a lengthy post...newayz.. See my bro..first of all..i wont comment on tafseer-e-katheer..bcuz we have many many books of tafseer -e- Quran ..and most of them r reliable as well as undisputed..above all we have the collection of the sayings of Hazrat Ali a.s. " NehjulBalagha " in which Hazrat Ali a.s. 's saying is collected which He addressed abt the eras and abt the tafseer of Quran..wel..u have sed tht God has promised to save the wordings of Quran after itz nazool..i agree..infact i was agrre on it earlier too..! BUT...Quranic verse which is in my house..which is in fati'z house and millions of Muslims' houses tells us " Al-Yaseen " while the verse in ur houses tells it " Illyasin " ..does it mean Quran has been changed ??.. my bro. i didn't mean tht Quran can ever be changed..but i meant tht Quranic words have been mispelled intenionally by the enemies of Ahlay Bait a.s. but it does not mean tht they have changed the real meaning " mafhoom " of tht as itz safe in the real true Quranic verses and thus in the hearts of Huffaz...the words might be changed but the meaning can't never be changed and therefore still. we have the true mafhooms of the verses so wat their wordings have been changed.. secondly..u r talking abt the biggest Quranic publishing from Madinah...but the wordings of Quran were changed in the era of banu Ummayya wen there was no existance of such particular Quranic publication except the hearts of the Imams a.s. or their followers ... however as far as we r concerned ..u say tht ur ulma has certified the word illyasin while even today i asked same from the scholar of our Jamma Masjid..he certfied the word " Ale- Yasin"..also one of my friend who knows very much Arabic told me tht the word Illyasin can not be correct grammatically at the place where itz supposed to be in Quran..however.. Al Yasin cud be the correct word.. u talk abt the Ulmas who never argued on wat we r discussing..wel..itz bcuz they theirselves r not confirmed tht iz it Illaysin or Al Yasin..n if u say tht here " Illyasin= Illyas bcuz seena = seeneen " then u must know tht Quran is such miraculuos boook tht itz verses r mostly on the particular theme..if it'z then here Illyas wud be the correct thesis as in the preceding no such word is used for other prophets.. secondly..my bro. many culpritz in our society wish to hide the truth by misleading ppl to the fazool issues jus as u sed tht sum ppl believe tht there r three parts of Quran.. they r all jus hypocrites and never consider them as a true Muslim.. infact there wud be the Zahoor of Imam Mehdi a.s. which is also in ur Maslak too.. ( u may ask from ur Ulma) the only difference is tht u ppl jus believe tht he wud bear while we believe tht he was born and now he is Ghaibat..and wud again cum in Zahoor jus like Hazrat Isa a.s. also..wat abt using RaziAllah and A.S. ?? see my bro..how can u say tht the hadiths we r quoting is wronf while one tht u r quoting is absolutely write .. i m talking abt the date of 10th moharram..it might also be possible tht the dates u have heard or came to know abt the Calphate of Hazrat Adam..abt Kashtiay Nooh etc might be wrong dates..therez no prob. or any dispute in the date of Shahadat of Imam hussain a.s, also.. bain karnay ka matlab hay gham karna..and infact kuch cheezain aisi hain jo hum logoon ko zaib nahi daiti..like bal noochna , kapray pharna etc..BUT..IF the grief of one'z beloved tht he/she is unable to control himself/herself then he/she may do Bain..in the way in which he cud overcum his grief..but ineed under limitz..itz not sinful to do Bain wen u r in gr8 grief of ur beloved ( jus as i described abt Hazrat Yousuf a.s.) ..but to do bain jus to expose urself is very big sin..bcuz God has facilated us to express our feelingz ..above all Islam is the religion of Human nature so how can It deny Humanz to express their rite feelingz..one can do matam wen hez in gr8 grief and u can't say tht hez a sinner..haan beating urself without any cause is a sin..jus take an exapmle tht if u r doing body building excercise to develop or to shape ur body then itz not sin..but u r beating ur self or implementing the same course jus without ny rite cause then itz a sin..! wel..i think itz pretty long enough.. C ya... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meeri 0 Posted June 3, 2003 Salaam shani....! Nice to see u at our friendly discussion :) First of all, i'm sorry if my posts r long enough but what can i do, i've already shortened it and didnt write some more things yet. if u dont mind, i apologize for this act but i dont have more time to write it in short sections. anyway, thanx for reading it and u r allowed to post long ones from my side. (see, the apologization took so long :D ) back to my point....... i mean our point... Why wont u comment on Tafseer Ibn-e-Katheer? I mean what do u believe in it? tamaam ulma us par muttafiq hain aur Ibn-e-Katheer bohot hee baray aalim thay jo abhee Islamic World k dor k thay. agar to woh Banu umayya k dor say pehlay k thay to issay saabit hota hay k Ilyaseen he aay ga. naheen to woh bhee Islam k bohot he baray aalim thay jo siraf Qur'an aur Hadith ko mantay thay. agar aap apnay kisee aalim say un k baaray main poochain to aap ko woh bataain gay k woh waqaee saheeh aalim thay aur un kee tafseer puree dunya k muslims k lyay hay bhee aur thee. to woh kaisay keh saktay hain k Ilyaseen usee ziman main aaya hay jab k woh arabic language say bilkul ghalat ho jaisa k aap k aalim nay bataya. common sense kee baat hay k pehlay Anbya kaa he zikar ho raha hay aur is aayat say pehlay Hazrat Ilyas AS kaa he zikar hua aur is aayat k baad bhee Anbya kaa zikar hay. ab mujhay naheen lagta k aik aayat say sequence torda jaay. aur aap un aalim say pooch kar daikhain jo main nay bataya hay aur yeh bhee bataain k yeh Tafseer Ibn-e-Katheer main likha hay jis ko aaj tak koi reject naheen karsaka. yeh alag baat hay k log mantay naheen jaisa k Jamaa'at-e-Islami waalay kehtay hain k humaray lyay Tafheem-e-Qur'an (modoodi sahab kee likhee huee) hee kafee hay aur agar koi quote karay to ussay naraz hotay hain. humain kisee kee parastish ya shakhsiat parastee naheen karnee chahyay..... haan! to main kya keh raha tha? wait......yes! abt changing in Quran... aap bhee naheen mantay main bhee naheen manta. go k aap k Quran main kuch aur likha hay aur mairay Quran main kuch aur. Bible aur Torah jo change huee hain woh saree he change huee hain. magar Quran main bhee agar koi changing huee hay to woh yeh hay k asal bhee mojood hay. is lyay is ko changing naheen keh saktay....... lihaza humain asal Quran ko talaash karna chahyay kyoon k woh abhee bhee mojood hay. abt 10 Muharram, yeh baat ghalat naheen ho saktee k us din Hazrat Nuh kee kishtee toofan say aazad huee thee, Hazrat Moosa ko Pharoah say najat milee thee, Hazrat Adam kee dua qabool huee thee..... is lyay k saheeh Bukhari main likha hua hay. laikin yeh baat saheeh Bukhari main naheen miltee k 10 Muharram ko Hazrat Imam Hussain Shaheed huay thay. aap agar calculate karna chahain k Hazrat Hussain 20 days main itna safar naheen kar saktay to aap horse kee travelling speed maaloom karain (yanee speed) yeh encyclopedia waghaira say aap ko maaloom huay gee k us kee average speed kya hay. phir aap Mecca say Karbala tak ka distance find karain aur phir horse kee speed ko Karbala aur Mecca k between k distance ko calculate karain. aur phir us ko days ya months main convert karain aur phir mujhay bhee bataain k kya answer nikla :) yeh baat usee dor main ghalat saabit ho gaee thee k distance to 2 months ka hay to woh 20 days main kaisay pohonch gaay? yeh sab yahoodyon kee chaal hay. aur bhala Hazrat Hussain kee shahadat ka itna gham kyoon hay jab k un say bhee baray baray sahabee aur khud Hazoor SAW shaheed kyay gaay? agar woh ahlebait thay to Hazoor SAW to baith walay thay. to phir kyoon? bahar haal! sab say baree baat yeh k un kee shahadat unhain hee faaida day gee. qyamat k din humain koi faaida naheen milay ga. har kisee kaa apna apna hisab ho ga. anyway, if u say that Quranic verses r misspelled then according to my opinion, even if it is Alyaseen or Aal-e-Yaseen, i'm not an enemy of Ehlebait. i give them very high priority and prestige after Hazoor SAW but we should not limitize ourselves to any particular matter or person. we should only believe in Allah's wordings i.e. Quran and in the sayings of Our Holy Prophet SAW i.e. Ahadith.... if we dont find any matter or problem, then according to Holy Prophet SAW, we should refer to sahaba-e-karaam. in sahaba-e-karaam, there r no boundaries. it includes all Sahabees. hope u r understanding my point...... I know its getting too long but i'm also sure that u rnt minding coz its just a friendly talk. The thing i'm trying to say is that, according to all Ulma it is Ilyaseen due to many reasons and there is no grammatic mistake in it. aur agar hotee bhee to yeh jo arab hain jo ehlebait ka itna ihteraam kartay hain aur yazeed ko to koi poochta he naheen to phir woh kyoon Ilyaseen parhtay hain haalaan k un ko to samajh aajaanee chahyay k yeh to grammatically wrong hay. bahar haal, even if it is Alyaseen or Aal-e-Yaseen, to issay kya point samjha na chah rahay hain? theek hay agar Alyaseen hay to ehlan wasehlan. hum bhee parhnay ko tayyar hain magar is par ziada tar jo saheeh ulma hain woh muttafiq hon. aur saheeh ulma say murad "Quran aur Sunnat k followers" hain. abt gham, haan! aap theek keh rahay hain k without any cause, maatam karna ya chekhna dhaarna sin hay. bilkul! main yehee keh raha tha k bilawaja itnay buray tareeqa say bain karna Islam main jaaiz naheen. laikin Muslims ko apnay ooper control karna chahyay. har dukh aur paraishaani main sabar-o-istaqamat say kaam laina chahyay. humaray lyay to Hazoor SAW kee misaal honee chahyay k jinhon nay apnee aulaad kee wafat par baray sabar say kaam lya tha. Hazrat Khadeeja RA kee fotgee par bhee baray tahammul kee misaal paish kee. isy tarah Hazrat Hussain, Hassan aur Ali RA nay bhee Hazrat Fatima RA kee wafat par koi aisa izhar-e-gham naheen kya tha k jis kee hum pairwee karrahay hon bulkay Hazrat Ali nay to un kee wafat k din he shadee karlee thee. aur jahaan tak body building kee baat hay, body building karnay say humain kuch mil raha hay yaanee humaree body achee ho rahee hay aur humain ussay faaida ho raha hay laikin yeh jo rona peetna hay, issay humain kya faaida milay ga aur jaisa k main nay reference dya tha Hadith ka k buree tarah rona peetna mayyat k lyay nuqsandeh hay... abt RA and AS........ RA means Raziallahu an'h jab k AS means Alaaihissalaam. Raziallahu an'h k meaning hain Allah un say raazi hua not raazi ho. Razia means "woh Razi hua" which is the past tense. and Alaaihissalaam means un par ya us par salaamti ho. no doubt k is main koi buree baat naheen k AS use kya jaay. yeh word kisee k lyay bhee use ho sakta hay. laikin RA siraf khaas bandon k lyay use kya jaata hay. laikin AS use karnay main bhee koi harj naheen. umeed hay k mairee kaee baatain clear ho gaee hon gee....... if not then plz share....... waiting for ur reply! PS: sorry i was bz so i could not reply u soon. but from the next time, i'll try my best to reply u at my earliest. But remember PATIENCE IS VIRTUE :;): Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamshani 0 Posted June 4, 2003 Salamz my bro..Meeri...( n where r u fati ?? u must be here..next time time..ok ?!! ) newayz.. itz ok thth ur comments r toolong..actually mine r too..!bcuz this topic demands it..! so never hesitate :) wel..abt tafseer ibne khateer...ok..i agree on it..however ..i consulted an Aalim thru net.. ( hez very well known and Mujtahid) i asked him abt this...he sed tht Quran can never be changed..yes the way of recieting by different ppl can be changed bcuz upto these 14 hundred yrz there were uncountable conspiracies to change Quran however they failed as Allah is guarding it but due to jealousy those culprits changed the way of recitation to confuse and ber conspiracies among Muslims.. as u agree tht it might be abt Ahlay Bait..so i agree too tht it might be Illyasin ..Wallah Alam..! however i wud prefer Al-e-Yasin still as it is confirmed from the gr8 tafseers of Quran as well as also the Mujtahids of Shia caste who r in contact with the 12th Imam Mehdi a.s... therefore as they r in contact with Imam ..so we r determined abt it..! however itz not dispute worthy IF ur heart has the rite reputation for Ahlay Bait a.s. and remember..Ahlay Bait a.s. r infact jus after Mohammad SAW and after Ahlay Bait a.s. there r Sahaba Rizwanullah aleh.. if u r gonna ask me y ?..then u might have heard abt Hadith-e-Kisa ..more reference wud be given too u by me if u ask.. newayz... u r saying tht these dates can't be false as they r in Sahih Bukhari..but can u tell me from where Bukhari rehmatullah aleh got these dates??...migth be those dates which he got cud be false...however if all Muslims r agrees tht Shahdat-e-Imam Hussain a.s. is on 10th Moharram then y r u denying ??..wat date can matter ???.. if u r saying tht itz conspiracy of yahodis bcuz they were defeated by Muslims..so must it be a happy day ??????...no way! wel..1st of all lissen...Mohammad SAW was not shaheed ?? was He martyred ??..and we mourn specially for Imam hussain a.s. bcuz no one and infact no one in the history of Humanity was martyred so dreadfully..not alone but with all His family...and not for personal sake but for Islam...for us..jus think if he had not given this sacrifice..can pure Islamic teachings wud have reached to us?? no way bro..! i agree tht mourning shud be in limits..but wat one can do if he can't control..after all Imam Hussain a.s. is of greater respect for us and more beloved for us than our own parents and siblingz..on the death of onez parent itz difficult for him to control himself then how can one control on the martyr of Imam..also..u must know tht the year the death of Hazrat Abu Talib and Hazrat Khadija a.s. occured tht yr was announced as the year of Mourning...( Aamul Huzn )..by Himself Mohammad SAW...and also on he wafat of Mohammad SAW ..hazrat Fatima a.s. mourned so much tht a house outside madina was built for her mourning .. also Hazrat Zainab a.s. wen freed from yazid'z darbar gave the order to orgainze a majlis where the ahlay bait mourned for their martyrs...so mourning or matam is not haram if u r really doing it in gr8 grief..! and abt RA ..and AS.. we prefer AS for ahlay bait..as this word is of gr8 reputtaion...! i think itz too long.. C ya.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meeri 0 Posted June 5, 2003 Salaam! nice to see u once again.... well..... fati, i think u should also join us. this is just a friendly discussion so dont get annoyed. no1 is fighting here :) well, my dear-o-friend-o-brother... about Sahih Bukhari, according to ulmas Saheeh Bukhari has been given equal prestige as to Qur'an. Saheeh Bukhari main jo kuch bhee likha gya hay woh tehqeeq shuda hay. aur woh jo bhee koi hadith likhnay lagtay thay to ussay pehlay istikhara karlaytay thay. abhee to main nay siraf Bukhari main daikha hay, kya pata baqyon main bhee yeh baat ho. jaisa k main nay aap ko pehlay bataya tha k Allah nay apnay zikar kee khud hifazar ka zimma lya hay. aur pehlay bhee bataya tha k zikar main Qur'an bhee hay aur hadith bhee. aur Siha Sitta bilkul saheeh consider kee jatee hain aur ulma he ka yeh kehna hay k us main shak karna aik tarah say kufar kee nishanee hay.. Wallah-u-a'lam! jo main aap ko batana chah raha hoon k Hazrat Hussain RA/AS 10th Muharram ko naheen shaheed huay us kee bhee koi waja hay. theek hay agar woh naheen bhee huay to issay kya hota hay k is din ko he maan lya jaay. Saheeh Bukhari main he woh hadith hay k Hazoor SAW nay muslims ko talqeen kee thee k woh is din aur is say aik din pehlay ya baad ka mila k roza rakhain (yanee 9,10 ya 10,11) k yeh muslims k lyay khushee kaa din hay. ab hum main say kon hay jo is din roza rakhta hay aur apnay aik saal k guna maaf karata hay. abt Ilyaseen, main nay jo aap ko bataya tha k yeh arabic Lughat hay jis main alfaaz ko aisay bhee ada kya jata hay. aur woh main nay example dee thee aur yeh poetry main bhee istamal hotay hain jin ka maqsad rhyme karna hota hay. pehlay Prophets kee jahaan tak baat hay, un k lyay already rhyming words use kyay jaa chukay hain. Take a look at those Quranic verses from 123-132 and think if Alyaseen or Aal-e-Yaseen can suit there. {So also was Elias Among those sent (by Us). Behold, he said to his people, "Will ye not fear (God)?" "Will ye call upon Baal And forsake the best of creators,-- God, your Lord and Cherisher of your fathers of old?" But they rejected him, And they will certainly Be called up (for punishment),-- Except the sincere and devoted Servants of God (among them). And we left (this blessing) for him among the generations (to come) in later times: "Peace and salutation To such as Elias!" Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. For he was one of Our believing Servants.} Before these verses, itz "Peace and Salutation to Moses and Aaron!" and after those verses of Elias is "So also was Lut among those sent (by Us)". Now lets refer to Tafseer Ibn-e-Katheer... The Imam of all Tafaseer. written by Ra'sul Mufassireen, Abu Alfida' Ibne Katheer (774 Hijree): He distributed these aayats from 123-132 in one para and after that, wrote something about Hazrat Ilyas AS. After his introduction, he then explains about "Ilyaseen": "Hum nay Hazrat Ilyas AS kee sana jameel aur zikr-e-khair pichlay logon main bhee baqee rakha. k har muslim kee zaban say un par durood-o-salaam bhaija jata hay. Ilyas main doosra (2nd) lughat Ilyaseen hay jaisay Isma'eel main Isma'een banoo asad main isee tarah yeh lughat hay. aik tameemee k shair main yeh lughat isy tarah laaya gya hay. meeka'eel ko meekaal aur meeka'een bhee kaha jata hay. Ibraheem ko Ibrahaam, Isra'eel ko Isra'een, toor-e-seena ko toor-e-seeneen. gharz yeh lughat arab main mash'hoor o raaij hay. Ibn-e-mas'ood kee qira'at main "Salaamun ala al-yaseen" hay. baaz kehtay hain issay muraad aanhazrat SAW hain. hum isy tarah naik karon ko naik badla daitay hain. yaqeenan woh humaray momin bandon main say thay. Wallahu ta'aalaa a'lam." [page 382, Jild 4- Tafseer IbneKatheer] issay pata chalta hay k yeh shak main mubtala hay aur donon tareeqay say bhee theek ho sakta hay laikin jahaan tak maira khyal hay to woh yeh hay k sequence na tora jaay and not to break the sequence of the Apostles. and Qur'an was being told to Prophet Muhammad SAW. God could say blessings to Prophet's family anywhere but not in the middle of any series. and if he would say blessings to Himself (i.e. Prophet Muhammad SAW), then he would use second person noun not third person's.... acha, ab main apnee baat ko continue karta hoon...... About yazeed k us nay Hazrat Hussain AS :;): (RA :P ) ko shaheed kya tha, us k baaray main bhee mujhay maaloom hua. asal main Hazrat Hussain nay yazeed kee baait na kee thee aur koofyon nay un ko apnay paas bulwaaya tha k hum aap ko apna ameer manain gay. to Hazrat Hussain maan gaay laikin unhon nay jaanay say pehlay apna aik governer bhee bhaija tha jis nay positive report he dee. laikin yazeed ko yeh baat achee na lagee k hazrat hussain koofya k logon k ameer ban jaain (ab yeh naheen kuch keh saktay k kyoon. ho sakta hay k un ko koofyon kee nature kaa pata ho. naheen to phir yeh bhee ho sakta hay k woh ikhtalaf na paida karna chahta ho ya Hazoor SAW kee baat k mutabiq k aik say ziada ameer naheen ho saktay..... kuch keh naheen saktay!!!) yazeed nay phir apna aik governer bhaija k yaa to Hazrat Hussain ko mairay paas mana kar lay ao ya un ko waapis bhaij do k woh waapis chalay jaain. baahar haal, woh governer theek naheen tha. us nay Hazrat Hussain ko shaheed kar dya haalaan k jab Hazrat Hussain ko pata chala k un kaa governer qatal ho gya hay to unhon nay waapis jaanay kaa irada karlya. laikin un k saathyon nay kaha k aap jaana chahtay hain to jaain par hum apnay bhai k khoon kaa badla lain gay. phir Hazrat Hussain nay apna mind change karlya aur un k saath rawana ho gaay thay. jab yazeed ko bataya k un k governer nay Hazrat Hussain ko shaheed karwadya to woh foran cheekh uttha k yeh tum nay kya kardya hay.... (yeh naheen kaha k yeh main nay kya kardya hay) aur us ko is baat kaa kafee ufsos bhee hua. yahaan tak mairee baat kafee hay. raha yeh k Yazeed sharabi, kababi, harami, zaalim tha... abhee yeh main confirm karwata hoon laikin sochnay kee baat hay k us nay apnee aankhon say Hazoor SAW aur sahaba-e-karaam ko daikha tha aur us kaa waalid Hazrat Ma'awya RA jo k makateeb-e-wahee bhee thay aur jaleel-ul-qadar sahabee bhee. to woh kaisay aisa ban sakta hay. aur phir yeh k us k haath par kis tarah itnay baray baray sahabeeyon nay baait kee aur us ko apna ameer mana. agar hota to sab kyoon naheen baait karnay say peechay hat gaay? aur apna ameer kyoon tasleem kya? aur agar woh waqaee bura shakhs tha to kya humain maaloom hay k us nay marnay say pehlay toba karlee ho? Allah to Mushrik k shirk ka guna bhee muaf kardaita hay to us k guna naheen maaf karsakta? to hum bilawaja kyoon kisee par buhtaan baandhain. agar us kee buraee kaa he keechard uchalna hay to humaray aaj kal k leaders konsay koi achay hain. woh bhee to Vajpaee k saath sharaab peetay huay tasweerain khichwatay hain. un ko kyoon naheen kuch kehtay? Umeed hay k aap mairee baat samajh gaay hon gay. enough for now.... waiting for ur reply.....! :) A.H. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamshani 0 Posted June 6, 2003 Salamz my bro.. wel i think fati is very buzy in her examz...she might behere after 9th june..newwayz..! wel my bro...i agree tht sahe satta are considered to be the most reliable in Ahlay Sunna...while u might not know tht in Shiite..there r four books which r considered to be most reliable as they were quoted from 1 Imams meanz Ahlay Bait a.s. uptill 11th century..and jus thinkwho can be more ereliable than Ahlaybait a.s. theirselves so we consider them most reliable...and in those references..Al-Yaseen is considered to be true..however no commentry needed on this more ..as it might be llyasin or Al-e-Yasin wallah Alamhowever i still prefer Al Yasin... u r saying abt the dates..wel dates might be wrong still....also do u think tht at the time of Hazrat Adam a.s. 'z arrival there was Islamic calendar ?..however..we shud not compromise with such dates wen we have reliable dates abt shadat of imam Hussain a.s. abt yazeed there r very much misunderstandingz in ur mindz thtz why u ppl still think tht yazeed might be jannati.. i wud justify tht later as i m ni a lil bit hurry now.. wud be back very soon inshallah. jus wait for me.. C ya.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fati 0 Posted June 6, 2003 salam. so u people missing me here. meeri i m not annoyed. u know u people submit such a long comments that i didnt have much time to reply. well in real it is al yasin. as in arabic al is attached to many surahs. well i have to read ur comments first. that will take time. so see u later . AH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fati 0 Posted June 6, 2003 thats a good example of hzrat yaqoob. its a big proof that azadari is fine. v have full right to mourn and nobody can deny the mourning of hazrat yaqoob. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cute_ooky 0 Posted June 6, 2003 Mujhe lagta hai..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fati 0 Posted June 6, 2003 by the way ya yaseen per discussion kayun ho rah ihay. baatt kiyah oi thi jo is per discussion shuru hoi. sorry i cant read those all previous posts . give me a brief reply about it. but it shud b brief. and pplz short posts. i become terrified after seeing such long posts. :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
